After a brisk nap

Great review Martijn. I haven't played QFG2, but I have always heard that it is the best game in the series. Interesting that you didn't think so. QFG2VGA has been a long time in coming (Tierra first announced it in 2002, I think), so hopefully the wait won't be too much longer.

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AGA

QfGIV is my favourite in the series (at least now it's playable unbugged and non-crashing), but II is a very close second. Personally I would have given it at least 4 stars, if not 4.5, for reasons I probably couldn't explain without going through the game and taking notes. It's just... awesome!

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Kurufinwe

Being rather fond of RPGs, some comments in the review giving the impression that the RPG elements are some sort of nuisance or necessary evil (like suggesting that the good news is that the game has fewer RPG elements than QfG1, but that the day structure doesn't allow you to just get on with the adventure elements and forces you to spend time on the RPG elements, which negates the good news) don't sit well with me -- obviously, if you're not interested in the RPG elements, don't play what is clearly an adventure/RPG hybrid.

I should also add that I feel that the way the game is structured gives a lot more depth, tension and strength to the story. Whereas QfG1 has a very static world, where you just do stuff until the game is happy that you've solved everything, here the game slowly builds tension, making you wonder what's going to happen next, and when, while letting you get prepared as you begin to understand how things are going to happen. I completely disagree with your idea that the game should have allowed you to go to Raseir immediately. Of course not! The caravan's departure, that you learn about very early on and seems far off at first, but keeps drawing closer, is probably the game's most clever plot element. As the story progresses, and you learn more about Raseir from Aziza, Al Scurva, etc., the curiosity about the city rises, and I remember being very excited about finally knowing what was going on there when I first played the game, while getting quite frantic as the departure approached and I got afraid I wouldn't have time to do everything in Shapeir before leaving.

And finally, what is that about the Arabian atmosphere not being authentic? Of course it isn't, it's a parody of Arabian Nights, not National Geographic! One of the main strengths of the Quest for Glory series is that they manage to always, at the same time, remain gripping and epic while never giving the impression of taking themselves seriously. That's a very difficult balance to strike; it's very easy to make the game feel too serious, with the humour/craziness seeming out of place (Tunguska); just as it's easy for a game to get sloppily designed because of its "not-too-serious" nature (LB2). But I always felt the QfG games, especially 2 and 4, managed to pull that off brilliantly.

So, erm, yeah. I guess most of what made the game so great for me didn't "click" with you. You just have bad taste.

(oh, and "tell about" has lots of uses, actually )

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Cellardoor

Heh - I realized this review would generate some controversy. It is indeed many peoples' favorite, but hey, I just can't change the way I feel.

The 'good news' is that the focus is more on storytelling (which this game does well) and less on RPG elements and combats (both of which aren't really that interesting in the original QFG2.)

More obstacles, such as capturing the Fire Elemental, can be overcome by solving puzzles. As mentioned in the review, puzzles requiring skill building plays a less significant role and are generally easier - I played through the game with a very underdeveloped Hero and had to do less skill building than in QFG1. Perhaps the review should have stated more clearly that this is a con for RPG fans, just as the simple combat system is one.

I actually agree with you, expect that I don't think this game builds tension very well. Perhaps this is indeed a matter of tastes. Also, the way the plot develops is fairly obvious, without many surprises.

Well, as I said in the review, the game and its story does become a lot more exciting once you arrive in Raseir, but it is partially spoiled because you have to wait so long for things to start happening. I mentioned that Raseir should be available earlier in the game because I believe it would have been very interesting to explore the dark city more in depth while having something meaningful to do, instead of just waiting for things to happen.

Again, I agree with you but not completely. I think all QFG games, except #2, manage to portray their respective cultures. (Medieval Europe, African, Slavic, and Ancient Greece.) The storytelling, characters and puzzles are all mixed with humor, but the setting is usually serious and accurate. Especially QFG3 and 4 do a great job at drawing you into a specific culture. Their characters, while often funny and comic, appear like real examples of the settings they live in. QFG2's, as said in the review, feel too general to fulfill the same role.

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Kurufinwe

Speak for yourself! Seriously, I get the feeling, from your reviews and the discussions we've had when it was decided to review the QfG games, that you've decided to experience the QfG games as adventures, and tend to consider the elements that are not adventure elements to be almost a nuisance. And you have every right to do that. BUT I feel that writing a review, especially when the game presents itself as a hybrid, is a completely different matter; you can criticise the RPG elements from an RPG perspective (How does the skill-building system work? Is it too slow, too fast? Is building skills fun or tedious? Are there skills which are harder to raise than others? Can you buy new weapons/equipment/spells? Do skills really matter, or just the hero's "profession"? What about mixed characters? etc.), but criticising them just for being there is, I feel, unfair, and sort of missing the point.

And I'm not buying the whole "detracts from story-telling", because almost all sort of gameplay, whatever the type, does that. But if people decide to play games rather than read books / watch movies, it must be that they do care about gameplay. Of course, what is exceptional about QfG2 is that the adventure elements manage to almost always progress the story and feel natural; but, once again, that is exceptional, and would have warranted emphasizing (rather than saying that the RPG elements detract from the story, which is completely different, as it sort of implies that it's completely natural for adventure elements not to detract from the story, which is simply not true at all).

While I disagree that there's nothing to do in Shapeir while waiting for the caravan to leave (and you can sleep at the inn anyway), I agree that running around Raseir waiting for time to move on is awful.

I'm not sure I'm getting what you mean. If you're saying that the in-game culture of QfG2, regardless of its relationship with real-world cultures, is less developed (with less backstory, cultural traits, etc.) than those of QfG 3 or 4, I completely agree with you (though I feel QfG1 was even worse in that respect). But if you're saying that it's less true to its inspiration sources (Arabian Nights, essentially), then I really don't get why you'd say that, and hope you can develop your point further.

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Jackal

Hmm, I don't see any actual examples of criticizing the RPG aspects simply for being there (it wouldn't have made it out the door if it did. ) The single biggest complaint about any hybrid (not just adventure/RPG) is that their different elements don't cohesively mesh. That's what these reviews suggest to me: sometimes they work as full hybrids, and sometimes there's just a bunch of RPG stuff tacked on to an adventure... because, you know, it's a hybrid. The latter is a weakness that deserves to be pointed out. Of course that opinion is debatable in these particular games, but I don't see it as a question of bias.

Beyond that, some RPG elements are nuisances even in good RPGs, and not even necessary evils. Stat-building as gameplay, for example, is always tedious (as opposed to stat-building in context). The review of QFG1 established that the implementation can be poor, at least at times (climbing a tree a bunch of times before being able to do so), so this review doesn't cover redundant ground. (And yes, every review needs to stand on its own, but its context as part of series can't be overlooked either.)

The flip side of your complaint is suggesting that being a hybrid inherently justifies any RPG elements present. There's no reason that should be so. That's a bit like saying that being an adventure justifies pixel hunting because it's a characteristic genre trait. Not everything needs a detailed analysis to declare it a flaw.

Note that I'm only speaking in generalities. I haven't played QFG2, so Martijn is on his own for supporting his particular claims.

ATMachine

I think this has a lot to do with tone as well as culture. The first two games seem to me to be much more whimsical in nature. There are a few serious elements, to be sure, but the humor is ever-present and very light in tone. In contrast, QFG3 and 4 take a much more serious approach to the story, and feature many more noticeable "dark" plot elements. The humor is still there, but it, too, is darker, becoming in Shadows of Darkness very morbid indeed. I wonder perhaps if your perception of "faithfulness to culture" is marked by this progression through the series. Is it, then, that maybe you're inclined to like "serious" treatments of other cultures more than somewhat irreverent portrayals?

Cellardoor

As this is an adventure game website, for the QFG reviews I decided to put the focus more on the adventure elements and not so much on the RPG or hybrid elements. As Jack pointed out, we did discuss the latter more in-depth in the QFG1 review. Since the RPG elements in QFG1 and 2 are very similar, Jack and I decided not to repeat too much.

Ofcourse, this does not mean that the RPG elements are necessarily bad. It just happens that these, in my opinion, aren't really that worthwhile or interesting, especially when compared to other RPGs such as Baldur's Gate. QFG's skill building doesn't make the game more enjoyable, and while combat is sort of fun, it isn't great either. I'm not criticising the RPG elements for being there, I'm criticising them because I don't think QFG2 makes for a very good RPG. (As for the VGA remake, that's a different story. )

I mentioned that the game focusses more on story telling and less on RPG elements. I didn't mean to indicate that QFG2 focusses more on storytelling because it focusses less on RPG.

Good point. Let's not mix things up though: I mentioned in the review that the game draws from Arabian Nights (the Aladdin vs Evil Vizier stuff) and ancient Arabian mytholoy (Djinni, Efreets, etc.) This is succesfully implemented, as it helps to create a unique story and game world. On the other hand, the culture is less developed and less authentic, especially the characters representing it. As mentioned in the review, they appear like western characters dressed up like Arabs, drawing from clichés. (Most men wear turbans, while women either wear veils and burqas or are dressed up like belly dancers.)

Graphics and music are also there to create a culture and an atmosphere, but both are slightly limited: Graphics are EGA and not very detailed, and music isn't everywhere. This means it's up to the characters to make me feel in an Arabic country - but the only persons that does this well is the female Sorceress, Aziza. The other characters that are supposed to be Arabian feel like silly charicatures. Because the characters don't effectively represent the Arabian culture, the game world doesn't feel Arabian, and therefore QFG2 doesn't either. (To be fair, ofcourse there are moments and scenes that do feel authentic, but not too many.)

Interesting point. As the series gradually becomes darker it also becomes more serious. Logically, a serious game would be able to create a more developed setting. However, I don't think seriousness (or darkness) per definition makes a game world more detailed/interesting/developed. Vice versa, neither does a silly/fun game necessarily feature an undeveloped/bland world. The first three Monkey Island games perhaps are good examples: These games are considered to be very humorous while at the same time present a very interesting and developed atmosphere and game world. I don't think the unseriousness of QFG2 (dismissing the part in Raseir, which is much more serious) makes the game world feel undeveloped. Had more effort been put into this, Trial by Fire could have been both a richly atmospheric world while still being silly and whimsical at times.

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Kurufinwe

OK, fair enough. I actually thought the RPG elements got a lot funnier in QfG2 (compared to QfG1), precisely because combat got better (and while it's true that it's possible to cut anything through just by continually attacking, the fighting system can be rather fun if you force yourself to play with it and use the various block / dodge options; it's my second favourite combat system in the series (4 > 2 > 5 > 1VGA & 3 > 1EGA). And also, it's easy to get fighting practice, and that makes almost all your skills rises (compare that with QfG3, where it's awfully hard to fight a monster to fight when you want to, and where you end up clicking again and again on the Simbani bridge to make your skills rise).

I didn't think the characters felt much more authentic in QfG1 or 4, but, well, maybe you're right.

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ATMachine

And where it's bloody impossible to avoid fighting if you don't want to! At least in the other QFG games you could run away and eventually reach a place where you'd be safe (partly due to the smaller map area size). But you can't get back on that big savanna map in QG3 unless you kill the monster chasing you, and trekking through hundreds of savanna screens is not my cup of tea.

Cellardoor

I agree QFG4 has the best combat in the series - though I think 3 has the worst. To quote Corey Cole:

While a great idea in theory, it just didn't work well in QFG3 - but that's a discussion for another review.

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