SoccerDude28

Marek et al. You know what would be in my opinion something really nice? To actually let Age'rs give review points for the games you yourselves review. That way, a person reading the review can take the reviewer's review, and if the opinions collide, he/she can look at the readers' reviews to see what they think. That way you can have more than one angle. I know there is already a reader's review section in the forum, but I was thinking of more of a Readers' score, where you take all the readers' scores and average it out. So a game will have 2 scores, AG's score, and reviewers score.

__________________
--------------------------------------------------
Games I am playing: Jeanne D'Ark (PSP)

Firefox rules

fov

That's an interesting suggestion. Like how books are ranked on Amazon.

-emily

Jake

I like that idea in theory, but I think on the whole it would lead to a lot of sort of fanboy-ish polarizing of "this game is amazing... 9.5!!!" or "this game isn't even an adventure (or alternatively "this is an FMV adventure?!?!?) ... 2.5!!!" which wouldn't really educate readers all that much. I think if people want other opinions they can ask in the forums, or read existing threads (or read or request other reader reviews/opinions of we the forumites) or - heaven forbid - take a look at some reviews on the other adventure sites to see how they stack up.

The other problem I see with this is that I suspect reader review scoring for newly released titles that most people haven't played rarely actually reflect the readers' opinions on the games (since in the first couple days nearly nobody has played the game yet!) but instead reflect the feeling they have from previews, hype, screenshots, or reflect their reaction to the review they just read. Again, not too helpful.

That said, I agree that it's worth discussing, I think.

__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens

SoccerDude28

It works well in other websites (I usually take Reader's reviews for movies in Yahoo than critics reviews). What you said is correct, but usually the extremes average out, and you usually get a fair score

__________________
--------------------------------------------------
Games I am playing: Jeanne D'Ark (PSP)

Firefox rules

Jake

It only takes two hours to see a movie, and a lot of people go see it opening night... That's not so much the case with AG's. I can see where you're coming from on this though.


I've just noticed that Gamespot is trying this right now, they have a reader review score that is gigantic - bigger than the actual review score! - and the score is usually far higher than the score of the actual reviewer, I suspect because people are excited by the game and rate it super high, or because they don't understand what leads a Gamespot reviewer to award a particular point value and just go arbitrary.

While I think reader input is important, I worry that displaying reader scores on the same page as official reviews will lessen and dilute the value of the review more than it will really help readers (or at best it won't help them any more than just taking a look at the reviews on JA, Four Fat Chicks, Gamespot, etc). But that's just my opinion

__________________
When on the Internet, visit Idle Thumbs | Mixnmojo | Sam & Max.net | Telltale Games

"I was one of the original lovers." - Evan Dickens

Jackal

I agree with Jake. There's just no way to apply any kind of standards to a reader scoring system, and it's too simplistic to say that extremes average out.

But more importantly, we really want the score to be the least relevant part of any review. A score is really little more than a placeholder; a reminder at a glance how a reviewer rated a game. The real value of a review is in the content.

Reader scores with no context at all just further detract from what we're actually trying to accomplish, which is to get people to READ about the game.

Places like Gamespot and Amazon actually offer a reader review option, do they not? Not all get printed, I know, but certainly some do. That's an entirely different thing than merely adding a scoring option.

fov

I think at Amazon the only way to score a book is by also writing a reader review. Not sure about Gamespot.

-emily

SoccerDude28

Well of course people have to give a reasoning to why they gave the score they did. It's not like a poll. That's what I meant

__________________
--------------------------------------------------
Games I am playing: Jeanne D'Ark (PSP)

Firefox rules

EasilyConfused

Well to be honest, I always read reviews here, other places, AND on Amazon, AND I take the Amazon stars into considerations on almost everything I buy. Of course there are problems because people have individual prejudices, but that's also true with individual reviewers.

Consumers differ as much as reviewers do, so even if you don't have a reviewer bias, it's hard for a review to cover everything a consumer might want. As BacardiJim pointed out when I asked about RPGs, not everyone is looking for the same thing. It may be a disadvantage to some people that Planescape: Torment (just picking a random item from that thread) involves a lot of reading, but I actually like games that involve a lot of reading. Some people hate them. So if you have reader reviews you can see the justifications. At Amazon, you also get to rank the reader reviews, so better ones (ones that people find more helpful) "float" to the top of the list (all reviews are posted.) I will read may a dozen reviews to see what people like and dislike about something, or more if it's an important purchase (like, a lot of $$$$), so that I can see what the consensus is. Yes, there tends to be some "inflation" across the board in scores for all ratings at these places, but you can factor that into a purchase easily enough.

There are always people who will give something great one star or something stupid 5 stars, but reading what they have to say in combination with the average is what is useful. I mean, if you REALLY thought that star systems were of no benefit, we wouldn't have them here at all, right?

I can understand if the objection is that it's a logistical nightmare, that it's not our function (since we're not really promoting game sales), and that it's duplicated elsewhere. But I don't see any principled drawback to the idea of putting up threads in the reader reviews section allowing ratings of games only if someone types up something in a limited space. If it's more of a practical concern that it's too much of a pain or we don't have the capacity to screen out say, people promoting their own games, just say that. (Maybe that's what you were trying to say, Jackal, and I misunderstood.)

SoccerDude28

Remember, with people prejudices, you have the vote of many people count so they all have to be biased to sway it one way. With a reviewer, it's only one person so he/she are the only one to judge on it. I like how on Yahoo they put the opinions of many critics about movies. And it usually varies termendously. Sometimes you see a critic with A, and another one with C for the same movie. That's how they have about 11 critics to be more fair. But in a video game, there is always one reviewer and he/she usually have preferences (every person does). Like yesterday, I was watching the show on TV where they rank video games, and they were rating an RTS. One reviewer gave it a 6. But he DOES NOT like RTS's. I've actually heard other people raving how good it was. So it's not fair to see the view point of only one person as compared to many people.
That's my humble opinion though

EDIT: THink about it as democracy vs Monarchy

__________________
--------------------------------------------------
Games I am playing: Jeanne D'Ark (PSP)

Firefox rules

remixor

Nope, on both sites you can rate a product on the star/point system without writing a review.

__________________
Chris "News Editor" Remo

Some sort of Writer or Editor or Something, Idle Thumbs

"Some comparisons are a little less obvious. I always think of Grim Fandango as Casablanca on acid." - Will Wright

EasilyConfused

Yes, but do the ratings where you just rate it get counted into the total ratings? I still find the ratings at Amazon helpful. I find the ratings at Netflix helpful, although they do this weird thing where they are like "Customers like you rated this a __, and total ratings are a __." (Mine are always "Customers like you rated this a 5, but most people gave it a negative 10, you retard.")

I do think it would be much more helpful to have a set of comments . . . But again, that's just me talking from my experience of Amazon.

Jackal

There was nothing in the original post to suggest anything but scores, so my answer didn't address the possibility of reader comments, except to say that was an entirely different matter.

Yes, that would partially address the issue of irresponsible voting, but it does indeed create a logistical monster.

I'm not at all completely opposed to giving people the opportunity to express their opinions and even give a score. And maybe we can think of a forum-based possibility for that. I mean, that's what they're for - talking about games (and other things).

But at some point, we draw the line and say our reviewers are chosen and developed to represent the public voice of AG on a particular game. We all have biases, but our reviewers are responsibe to present a balanced, professional view, and that simply deserves a place of its own.

EasilyConfused

I completely see your point. You have very well-written, polished AG reviews that should stand on their own and get full attention from readers.

In terms of other formal ways to express views about games, it seems to me without knowing anything about how your software works that the easiest way to offer a reader-review supplement to AG reviews (I know there already ARE reader reviews, but the segment of the forum seems a little underutilized) would be to create a set of sticky threads in alpha order for game comments with an attached poll rating the games on a star-type system. Can you set it up that way, and can you require users to post in order to vote in a poll? (I don't know if you can get a mean from the poll data--if not, people might have to be content with seeing the poll numbers.) More casual chit-chat about the latest games could be in the Adventure Games section, or you could create a separate forum section for the poll/comments on games. And by keeping the game "ratings" in the forum, you ensure that not everyone who reads the site can simply come along and click a button before going on his or her merry way. Not that registration is so hard, but it takes time and pulls people into the AdventureGamers community (if that's a goal!)

Again, I have no idea if this is something you want to do, and I'm not wedded to it or passionate about it or anything--it was SD's suggestion. I think it's potentially a good one if people use it, but if it's a nightmare for you all and/or nobody posts, it's a waste. Anyway, food for thought.

Speaking of food for thought, I know it's just an avatar, but it's much more difficult to take "you" seriously with that candy cane in "your" mouth. It detracts from the dignity of Anubis. I really like it though. Good job, Emily!

Jackal

There's certainly some merit to a non-official reader system of some kind, so that idea isn't being dismissed. I just don't want anyone holding their breath about seeing a Gamespot-style mongo reader score appearing on our reviews any time soon.

People took me seriously before? :eek: Who knew?

Spoiler:

I think Emily was just trying to muzzle me.

fov

Eh? What? Did you say something?

EasilyConfused

Of all the things I am holding my breath waiting for (a better-paying job, a breakthrough on the real work that I do, romance, etc.), I hate to say this ranks kinda low on the list.

You're the God of the Underworld. You'd think that would command some respect!

Lol. I'll let you two fight that one out.

Mattsius

Didn't you know; candy canes were the highest symbol of respect in ancient Egypt.

EasilyConfused

We'll I'll be. You're right, look:



Seems like the flavors were kind of different then, though. Oh well.

You learn something new every day!

Mattsius

Yum, tasty!